Can we make the hardest statement in transcendental theory to prove collatz?

I want a very precise statement like :

  • an inequality so hard to prove e.g : 3^n -2^n \times \lfloor 1.5^n\rfloor<2^n-1.5^n (related to Waring’s problem)
  • an equality maybe , like : \displaystyle \lfloor \frac{3^n}{2^n} \rfloor = \lfloor \frac{3^n-1}{2^n-1} \rfloor (it’s still open btw)

and so far and so forth , i.e a pure transcendantal question that isn’t related to dynamic arithmetic anymore !

because , if you’re working on cycles or whatever you just waste your time without any real progress

i.e you either keep optimising cycle lengths or make probabilistic statistical results (like Tao did)

and like what Lagarias once said to Alex Kontorovich,

"The first time I met him, I was a senior in college and he pulled me aside and he said :

Don’t work on this problem, If you want to have a career do not start spending time writing about this

or publishing any papers about this, do real math for a while to establish yourself !

that is i’m looking for the question that will only needs real math to solve it and would solve collatz entirely ?

Did you mean 3^n -2^n \times \lfloor 1.5^n\rfloor<2^n-\lfloor 1.5^n\rfloor which I think is equivalent to the (second) equality and is the waring problem, or without floor (hence the “related”)?

Put r_n=2^n \{ 1.5^n \} , i.e : the remainder of 3^n \pmod {2^n}.

If the following inequality holds: \forall n>1 , r_n<2^n-1.5^n (an open problem).

It has been proved that the function g(k) occurring in Waring’s problem, is given by the formula : g(k)= 2^k +\left \lfloor{\displaystyle 1.5^k} \right \rfloor -2

This was noted by J. A. Euler, the son of Leonhard Euler, in about 1772

Ok, I see, you replaced the floor and inequality with a strict inequality (I shouldn’t have put a strict inequality myself). I’ll check in my notes, but I am prety sure both your original statements are equivalent.

I want somebody like Ken Ribet to appear here and make an incredible connection between :

what Ribet did was to find a corresponding Frey curve for a^n+b^n=c^n with (n \ge 3)
and showed that curve cannot be modular (which was called the ε-conjecture)

So , “Taniyama-Shimura conjecture + ε ⇒ Fermat’s last theorem”


  • What we’re doing along these 90 years is good but not sufficient enough for collatz !

like Euler proving the n=3 case and few related conjectures but didn’t solve the general theorem

that is we’re just considering some special cases of Collatz like Euler was doing back then !

not just Euler but many other people tried (Sophie German , Legendre , … ) for specific exponents only

I hope my question and the analogy i’m giving right now is clear !

Tao had some thought on this

“Thus we see that any proposed proof of the Collatz conjecture must either use transcendence theory, or introduce new techniques that are powerful enough to create exponential separation between powers of 2 and 3”

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As Tao said in his blog:

Thus we see that any proposed proof of the Collatz conjecture must either use transcendence theory, or introduce new techniques that are powerful enough to create exponential separation between powers of 2 and powers of 3

does this mean if someone proved \forall b > b_0 , 2^a-3^b >> (2+\epsilon)^b ,

the collatz conjecture will be true ? (e.g : Rhin’s bound answers the case \epsilon=0)

otherwise, what he meant by “that are powerful enough to create exponential separation” ?

or which type of hard inequality in transcendental number theory is sufficient to prove collatz entirely ?

What is meant is that an approach not strong enough with respect to these kinds of bounds is unlikely to succeed. On the other hand, the question of whether there is a bound of this kind that could be sufficient for a complete proof remains largely open. It could also be possible that a bound in the spirit of the abc conjecture might be necessary since it has similar implications regarding power separation.

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2^a-3^b >> (2+\epsilon)^b

Note that Ellison pushed a bit with 2^a-3^b > 2.56^b and using these tricks you can push as far as you want (e.g. with b>2000 we have 3^b-2.99^b > |2^a − 3^b| > 2.99^b, the left inequality relying on a=\lceil b\log23\rceil). These are not helping much.

Rhin pushed (the log version) to a^{-7.616} for some a>a_0, and some are trying to push it to a^{-2} or b^{-2} to Roth’s levels. They would be far tighter, but this may be not enough either…

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Yes, even if we could make it at Roth’s level, such inequality is not sufficient to rule out cycles with a lot of local minima, whose worst case is the high cycle. Surprisingly, the case of high cycles has recently been settled by @mathkook with a completely different approach. So one may wonder if with a combination of both techniques we could progress further. A preliminary study of sequences with a significantly redundant parity vector led us to promising advances earlier on this forum, but it is far from sufficient.

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if only cycles are still hard to solve , then collatz is so hard harder than that :skull:

can you plz give me the link of where @mathkook did something with a completely different approach ?

Here are the links to the paper and preprint.

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I have no original insight into this question but I think it’s really interesting and I just want to highlight two relevant posts on the forum being hinted at in this thread since I recently did a read-through. I don’t mean to intrude with information you already know. I’m just connecting the dots for myself and maybe some others.

Tao had some thoughts on this

Proving Collatz is Baker Hard - This post details Tao’s statement that creating exponential separation between powers is necessary to prove Collatz, utilizing a specific inequality.

Proving the opposite, that 2^a - 3^b > b/2 can be false, would even be sufficient to prove Collatz false, but we know it’s always true.

A preliminary study of sequences with a significantly redundant parity vector led us to promising advances earlier on this forum, but it is far from sufficient.

Longest-Repeated-Substring - This argument rules out integer cycles with sufficiently long repeating substrings. Using Ellison’s bounds, the repeated substrings have to be at least half the length of the cycle to rule out an integer solution, and the theoretical limit with current techniques still requires them to be more than a third of the cycle length.

Is it possible to combine this with the combinatorics fact (also mentioned in the linked thread) that the longest repeated substring in a necklace must be at least something like log_2(k) (still extremely small) to give the kind of statement we’re looking for here, even if the bound would be absurd?

Edit: log_2(k) not log_2(k + x); shortcut steps means k is the whole length. While I’m at it, let me just answer my own question. No, because for longest repeated substring r, we’re looking for 3^{k - r} < 2^k - 3^x and r = log_2(k) is not going to bring 3^{k - r} below 3^x.

even if we could make it at Roth’s level, such inequality is not sufficient to rule out cycles with a lot of local minima, whose worst case is the high cycle

Similar question: Is there a level at which it would be sufficient for all m-cycles? Even if it required some crazy huge effective bound for the cycle length? I’m assuming not since you also said

the question of whether there is a bound of this kind that could be sufficient for a complete proof remains largely open

By the way I’m not trying to suggest it would be practical. I’m just honing in on the question of the thread.

To the idea that

if you’re working on cycles or whatever you just waste your time without any real progress

I would imagine even if there were such a bound, it wouldn’t be both sufficient and necessary. Like, there’s a weak necessary bound and maybe a strong sufficient bound, but no bound that is identical to no nontrivial cycles. There’s always the possibility that the sufficient bound turns out to be false and you would have to figure out cycles some other way.

Last thing, and this might be even more of a reach, but maybe there is a concern that such a bound could be used to answer questions which should be undecidable about general Collatz systems.

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@AcidicJello These questions are great! Tao showed “(Weak) Collatz implies (Weak) Baker”, but is there anything that would imply (Weak) Collatz? Reducing X to Y is really clarifying sometimes.

Right on the money! Except … when r is small, constructing the 3^{k-r} worst case isn’t actually possible, because you wind up with (0|1)^r 1^{k-r-1} 0, which no longer has an LRS of r = \log(k). So it’s pretty interesting. I’ve been meaning to post about this for a while, hopefully I can get some time. [Edit: found some time.]

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Since you insist, I will try to explain in more details why this is unlikely without some additional stuff like a new idea or technique.

Assume a bound of the form
2^l-3^s>\cfrac{3^s}{l^a} \quad (whenever \frac{s}{l} < \log_3 2)
where a is a strictly positive constant, to encompass all possible levels of strength (obviously, this cannot hold when a is too small). The above inequality can be derived from Rhin’s bound with a=13.3. At best, the optimal bound might be a=1+\varepsilon with \varepsilon > 0 arbitrarily small (and s sufficiently large), which corresponds to Roth’s level as @Collag3n puts it.

Assume the existence of a nontrivial cycle of length l starting at a positive integer n with parity vector v. Using these notations, we can write that
n = \cfrac{3^s n + \beta(v)}{2^l}
where s is the number of odd terms and \beta(v) the remainder numerator, so that
n = \cfrac{\beta(v)}{2^l - 3^s}.

First, let us consider the case of a circuit with parity vector v=1^{s} 0^{l-s}. This case is “easy” to rule out (by taking advantage of the power of Rhin bound) for two reasons:

  • \beta(v) is minimized and its value is simple to express: \beta(v) = 3^s - 2^s;
  • n gives rise to a sequence of s successive odd integers, so, using a well-known result of Terras, we have n \equiv -1 \pmod{2^s}, which implies n \geq 2^s - 1.

Putting everything together, we obtain
\cfrac{3^s}{l^a} < 2^l - 3^s \leq \cfrac{3^s - 2^s}{2^s - 1}
and
l^a > \cfrac{3^s}{3^s - 2^s}(2^s - 1) > 2^s - 1 \sim 2^{\,l \,\log_3 2}.
Whatever the value of a, the LHS is growing much slower than the RHS. So it is not difficult to conclude the proof using Eliahou’s lower bound on l. In fact, it would have been easier to use Ellison bound, instead of Rhin, since it is stronger for small l and s.

Here, I have to mention the magical trick found by @mathkook in his no-circuit proof who managed to get through by using only the trivial bound n >1. His idea was to obtain another integer expression where \beta(v) has been replaced by something much smaller (close to 2^{l-s}).

Now, in the general case of a cycle, things are much more difficult:

  • the general expression of \beta(v) is rather complicated and we only have upper bounds of the form \beta(v) < c \,s \,3^s for some constant c>0 (when n is the smallest term of the cycle);
  • we do not have a lower bound on n except n > N where N is the current record for the computational verification of Collatz.

In the end, we get
l^a \, s > \cfrac{N}{c}
which is inconclusive, even for ridiculously small a values. It only implies a lower bound on l (when assuming an optimal exponent a \simeq 1, we get a lower bound approximately of the same magnitude as in Eliahou’s paper). So, we are stuck.

In fact, it would be great if we had a lower bound on n growing exponentially fast with l, like in the circuit (aka 1-cycle) case. In the case of an m-cycle, such lower bound can be obtained, but the growth rate depends on m and decreases exponentially fast as m increases. As soon as m gets larger than, say 1000, it becomes useless.

So, is it hopeless? Not completely. There is numerical evidence that such a lower bound on n holds for any sequence starting at n with a parity vector v of length l and weight s \approx l \log_3 2:
n \geq \cfrac{\alpha^l}{l} \quad with \alpha =1.035\ldots
even if it’s not a cycle, provided that n is an integer. The exact value of \alpha arises from a simple heuristic reasoning based on Terras/Lagarias results and is a particular case of a more general hypothesis that has been already investigated in this paper. The reasoning may seem a bit naive and far-fetched, but surprisingly it works pretty well computationnally for any l. Moreover, this lower bound would be sufficient to settle the case of nontrivial Collatz cycles. I don’t think that this lower bound is easy to prove, though…

Another approach might be to follow @mathkook’s idea dealing with redundancy in parity vectors and try to replace \beta(v) by something smaller. It’s still too soon to say how far we can go that way.

Well, this was quite an extensive post. Writing it down helped me clarify my thoughts. And can inspire some reader as well.

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can we prove in general :

  • \displaystyle \lim_{n \to +\infty} \sqrt[n]{\lambda_n}=\displaystyle \lim_{n \to +\infty} \sqrt[n]{3^n-\lambda_n}=3

where \displaystyle \lambda_n=2^{\lceil \log_2(3)n\rceil}-3^n \in ]0,3^n[

and is this still an open problem ?

With the floor function, \lambda_n is still oscillating between 0 and 3^n
3^n> \lambda_n> 0 so you can’t make that shortcut at infinity.

This is more clear when you divide by 3^ n the whole expression 3^n-2.99^n> \lambda_n> 2.99^n:

1-\epsilon> \frac{2^{\lceil \log_2(3)n\rceil}}{3^n}-1> \epsilon

\frac{2.99^ n}{3^n} tend to 0 with larger n (even with 2.999 or 2.999999 or more) so it looks big, but it is negligible compared to 3^ n, and even if it gives the impression that using 2.99 or 2.999999 is pushing the sandwich towards 3^ n, it does not.

\frac{2^{\lceil \log_2(3)n\rceil}}{3^n} does not tend to something, it is sometimes closer to 1, sometimes closer to 2, but with a small “Baker” margin in both cases.

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let me show you based on experimental data , why the limits above seems to tend to 3

in PARI GP , i did this :slight_smile: :
for(n=1,10000,L=2^(ceil(log(3)/log(2)*n))-3^n;write(“out.txt”,n," “,L^(1/n),” ",(3^n-L)^(1/n)))

. . .(here’re the last 10 terms). . .

9991 2.9998248053519505783 2.9997548850548187970

9992 2.9990233211662426121 2.9999881693107808230

9993 2.9997133429671187226 2.9998541344274990750

9994 2.9999499653198623242 2.9994375625249715100

9995 2.9995601828227223171 2.9999211708057380198

9996 2.9998666742955885464 2.9996923083848036726

9997 2.9992911798008327775 2.9999703092532764869

9998 2.9997663097972885853 2.9998157028194645462

9999 2.9999831064830241514 2.9991285482113434522

10000 2.9996356465239613821 2.9998943535708273776

here’s the plot up to n=100 :

and up to n=10^4 :

a little zoom on the last terms near 10^4:

@Collag3n so they look too close to 3 and not diverging towards something indeterminate, what do you think now ?

Hmmm…I would have to dig, but it’s probably more linked to the fact that both \sqrt[n]{1-\epsilon} and \sqrt[n]{\epsilon} tend to 1 and “outgrows” the 3^ n factor (so indeed \sqrt[n]{3^ n(1-\epsilon)} and \sqrt[n]{3^ n(\epsilon)} tend to 3 ). Will have a look at it, but it might obfuscate what is really going on behind.

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Up to n=10^3 , these numbers \color{orange}971 and \color{orange}665 are the most close to 3 , i.e:

\displaystyle \sqrt[665]{2^{\lceil \log_2(3) \times 665 \rceil}-3^{665}} \approx 2.9999996061197539387 (\color{orange}6 consecutive nines)

\displaystyle \sqrt[971]{3^{971}-(2^{\lceil \log_2(3) \times 971 \rceil}-3^{971})} \approx 2.9999969736052708565 (\color{orange}5 consecutive nines)


And up to n \approx 5\cdot 10^4 , these numbers \color{red}31867 and \color{red}47468 are the most close to 3 , i.e:

\displaystyle \sqrt[31867]{2^{\lceil \log_2(3) \times 31867 \rceil}-3^{31867}} \approx 2.9999999986321347659 (\color{red}8 consecutive nines)

\displaystyle \sqrt[47468]{3^{47468}-(2^{\lceil \log_2(3) \times 47468 \rceil}-3^{47468})} \approx 2.9999999993092331267 (\color{red}9 consecutive nines)


that’s why it seems that \displaystyle \lim_{n \to +\infty} \sqrt[n]{\lambda_n}=\lim_{n \to +\infty} \sqrt[n]{3^n-\lambda_n}=3 ?

and do you think this is still open ?

Thanks for your response !