Proving "no divergent numbers" is at least as hard as ...?

Tao showed that proving “no Collatz cycles” is at least as hard as proving “2^l - 3^s grows fast with l and s”. The latter thing is itself very difficult, only proved in the 1960s by Fields Medal winner Alan Baker. Tao’s reasoning was covered in this post.

So, how about divergence? Is proving “no number diverges to infinity” at least as hard as some other problem Y?

I don’t mean, “if we had as-yet-unproven result Y, then we could use it to prove no number diverges”, but the converse, “if we somehow proved no number diverges, such a proof would instantly imply Y”.

This would be especially useful if Y were famously unsolved (extreme case: Riemann hypothesis), or famously solved with great effort (extreme case: Fermat’s Last Theorem).

The idea is to at least help explain why proving no-divergence seems so difficult, by identifying an tangible boulder in the road.

Following Tao’s logic, we might ponder why no-divergence seems hard, then look for a theorem Y (or conjecture Y) where we could mechanically construct, from any counter-example to Y, a divergent Collatz number. What weird thing, if true/false, would allow us to construct, locate, or prove the existence of a divergent number?

When we talk about cycles, it’s not hard to get into a technical discussion about the divisibility of certain \beta values by 2^l - 3^s being unlikely (because the latter is so big … but, hey, what if it weren’t so big?).

But when it comes to divergence, I don’t find it easy to kick off a similar discussion.

Are you familiar with Tree(3) from Kruskal’s Tree Theorem? I have been looking at connections between various theorems and saw some similarities to this. After being inspired by an Algebraic Geometry seminar and “seeing flavors of collatz” in other fields of hobby again.

1 Like

Okay, I think I can finally answer the question at the top of this thread.

Collatz is Baker-hard. On another thread, we repeated Tao’s proof that the Collatz conjecture is Baker-hard, meaning a Collatz proof would necessarily imply a very hard Baker-style result of the form 2^l - 3^m > m for all sufficiently large l and m. (Baker’s proved something stronger, but even this Baker-lite result seems very hard to prove.) In other words, solving Collatz would mean doing something akin to Baker’s Fields Medal-worthy research. Tao showed that ruling out non-trivial Collatz cycles is Baker-hard. He did this by assuming 2^l - 3^m \leq m for some large l and m, then showing how to use that assumption to assemble a Collatz cycle. By the contrapositive, if there are no Collatz cycles, then there are no counterexamples to Baker, so Baker’s result is a consequence.

Question. What about the other half of the Collatz conjecture? How hard is it to prove there are no divergent start numbers?

We’re going to show:

Theorem. If no Collatz divergent numbers exist, then no Z_{9/8} numbers exist.

This is formally scarier than Tao’s reduction, because the nonexistence of Z_{9/8} numbers isn’t just hard to show, it’s an open problem.

Background 1. Lagarias’ book mentions “oblique connections” between the Collatz conjecture and Mahler’s Z_{3/2} problem. According to Lagarias, Mahler conjectures that no \xi exists such that:

0 \leq \{ ( \cfrac{3}{2} )^k \xi \} < \cfrac{1}{2}, k = 1, 2, 3 \ldots

where \{ x \} is the fractional part of x. Now, considering the Collatz-like system

W(n) = \frac{3n}{2} if n is even, or \frac{3n+1}{2} if n is odd,

Lagarias relates that if a Z_{3/2}-number lies in [n,n+1), then the associated trajectory of n never hits 3 mod 4. This connects Mahler’s problem to Collatz-like systems, but not to the Collatz rule itself.

Background 2. A Z_{9/8} number \xi, if it existed, would similarly have

0 \leq \left\{ \left(\frac{9}{8}\right)^k \xi \right\} < \frac{1}{8}, \qquad k=1,2,3,\ldots

It should seem very unlikely that the fractional part would stay under 0.125 forever, as you keep multiplying in factors of 9/8. But … the nonexistence of Z_{9/8} numbers is an open problem. Dubickas and Mossinghoff studied Z_{p/q} numbers in 2009, stating that when (2 < q<p<2q) it was widely believed that no such numbers exist. The case (p/q=9/8) lies in this range. Andrieu, Eliahou, and Vivion (2026) formulated a generalized Mahler conjecture that no (Z_{p/q}) numbers exist whenever (p < q^2). So, Z_{9/8}) is an unresolved case.

Main Theorem. If no Collatz divergent numbers exist, then no Z_{9/8} numbers exist.

The idea is to take a Z_{9/8} number and convert it to a Collatz start number n that follows a divergent trajectory whose parity sequence is an infinite concatenation of 110 and 101. Every three steps of the Collatz process guarantees a larger number.

Let

g_k=\left\lfloor \xi\left(\frac{9}{8}\right)^k\right\rfloor

and write

\xi\left(\frac{9}{8}\right)^k=g_k+r_k, \qquad 0\leq r_k<\frac18.

Since

g_{k+1}+r_{k+1} = \frac98(g_k+r_k),

we get

8g_{k+1}-9g_k = 9r_k-8r_{k+1}.

The left-hand side is an integer, while

-1<9r_k-8r_{k+1}<\frac98.

Therefore

8g_{k+1}-9g_k\in\{0,1\}.

Let

e_k=8g_{k+1}-9g_k.

Then

g_{k+1}=\frac{9g_k+e_k}{8} = \left\lceil\frac98g_k\right\rceil.

Reducing modulo 8,

g_k+e_k\equiv0\pmod8.

Thus

g_k\equiv \begin{cases} 0\pmod8,&e_k=0,\\ 7\pmod8,&e_k=1. \end{cases}

So every g_k is either 0 or 7\pmod8.

Now define

n_k=2g_k-5.

If g_k\equiv0\pmod8, then n_k\equiv11\pmod{16}, so its next three Collatz parities are 110, and

T^3(n_k)=\frac{9n_k+5}{8} = 2\left(\frac{9g_k}{8}\right)-5 = 2g_{k+1}-5 = n_{k+1}.

If g_k\equiv7\pmod8, then n_k\equiv9\pmod{16}, so its next three Collatz parities are 101, and

T^3(n_k)=\frac{9n_k+7}{8} = 2\left(\frac{9g_k+1}{8}\right)-5 = 2g_{k+1}-5 = n_{k+1}.

Hence in either case,

T^3(n_k)=n_{k+1}.

Since

g_k= \left\lfloor\xi\left(\frac98\right)^k\right\rfloor \longrightarrow\infty,

we may choose K large enough that n_K>0. Then

T^{3j}(n_K)=n_{K+j}=2g_{K+j}-5\longrightarrow\infty.

Thus n_K is a divergent positive Collatz starting number.

Therefore, if a Z_{9/8} number exists, then a divergent Collatz number exists. Taking the contrapositive,

If no divergent Collatz numbers exist, then there are no Z_{9/8} numbers.

That ends the proof.

PS. 110 is the parity sequence of a well-known negative Collatz cycle (-5, -7, -10, -5). It’s also possible to take the other negative cycle 11110111000 and prove that ruling out Collatz divergence is alternatively as hard as the nonexistence of Z_{2187/2048} numbers.

2 Likes

This -1<9r_k-8r_{k+1}<\frac98 shouldn’t be -8<9r_k-8r_{k+1}<9 ?

By assumption, we’ve got a Z_{9/8} number, so the r values are always between 0 and 1/8.

arf…dind’t read carefully.
Note that Collatz number starting with j repetitions of “110” are h\cdot8^j-5 and those starting with j repetitions of “101” are h\cdot8^j-7. (other cases here: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2428060/how-to-prove-this-inequality-f2h-1≤-frac3h-12/2428208#2428208). I wonder how we would write such numbers with j infinite…

I know … and after (110 | 101)*, I am so used to thinking there must be a lot of zeroes coming! Either to close a cycle or reach 1.

@mathkook This looks really amazing!

So you found an elementary proof that Collatz is at least as hard as the nonexistence of Z_{9/8}-numbers…

One more good reason for not trying to solve Collatz… and/or for searching for Z_{9/8}-numbers.

1 Like

Been searching for a Z_{9/8}-number to see how hard it is.
By drawing 100000 numbers at random, the best candidate was \xi = 8590.309 for which the condition 0 \leq r_k < \frac18 holds for k=1,2,3,4,5,6.
We get n=2 g_1 - 5=19323 whose parity vector of length 21 is 110 110 101 110 110 101 110.
So it works even better than expected!

Very likely, we can do much better if apply the algorithm described in Dubickas paper…

Whoa, that’s interesting!

It seems your “better than expected” is the rule rather than the exception.

Start number 7275 also has a long parity sequence of 110 and 101 blocks:

110.101.101.101.101.110.110

When I try to backfit a \xi to generate that same block-sequence, with g_0 = \frac{7275+5}{2} = 3640, I can’t find one that generates more than two of the blocks. For example, any 3640.1 \leq \xi < 3640.11 (not tight) gets you two blocks.

Even without the g_0 restriction, it seems no \xi anywhere can generate the first three blocks.

But still, if some \xi does go “all the way”, then there’s a corresponding Collatz trajectory that also goes “all the way”.

I was also wondering if we could conversely use Collatz to search for Z_{9/8}-numbers.

In your example, we can do slightly better by setting g_1 = 3640 = \lfloor \frac98 \xi \rfloor, so that \xi must be slightly larger than \frac89 g_1 = 3235.5555\ldots. If we set \xi=3235.65, we have 0 \leq r_k < \frac18 for k=1,2,3. Not bad.

1 Like

A closer look reveals that the dynamics of the fractional part is rather simple to describe depending on which block we have in our parity vector:

  • block 110 → r_{k+1} = \frac98 r_k
  • block 101 → r_{k+1} = \frac98 r_k - \frac18

As a consequence, we should never have two consecutive 101 blocks.

On the other hand, if we have only 110 blocks, we end up considering \xi candidates which are integers divisible by a large power of 2 (since g_k \equiv 0 \pmod{8} for all k in that case) and all fractional parts are equal to zero. Not very interesting.